Pronunciation: fluid, hiat

LoveVanPersie

Senior Member
Mandarin, Hakka
Hello. There are some sources which differ in pronunciations of ui and ia in fluid and hiat, respectively. Are they hiatuses or diphthongs?

Sources claiming ui is a hiatus:
  • Cabré i Prieto 2008, p. 9: "Quan tenim un límit morfològic entremig de les dues vocals, la realització més generalitzada quan la seqüència és accentuada és l’hiat: …, fluid."
  • DCVB: "Fon.: flúit (Barc., Val., Palma). "
Sources claiming ui is a diphthong:
  • Optimot - 'fluïd' o 'fluid'?:"En canvi, la forma fluid … no porta dièresi perquè les vocals del grup ui formen diftong. Així, s'han de pronunciar amb un sol cop de veu (l'accent recau sobre la u)."
  • IEC - Ortografia catalana, pp. 103, 104 (marked 101, 102): "Cal fer atenció a distingir alguns mots en què la i o la u no formen diftong amb la vocal anterior d’alguns altres de similars en què sí que en formen: …, fluït (participi de fluir) i fluid (‘fluent’ i ‘substància fluida’)", "una i feble precedida d’una vocal forta és pronunciada dins la mateixa síl·laba que aquesta, amb la qual forma un diftong decreixent: …, fluid".
  • DNV: [flújt].
  • Wiktionary: /ˈfɫujt/.

Sources claiming ia is a hiatus:
Sources claiming ia is a diphthong:
  • IEC - Ortografia catalana, pp. 109 (marked 107): "d) No s’apostrofa davant i o u amb valor semivocàlic ([j] o [w], respectivament), precedides o no de h: el hiat".
  • DNV: [ját].
  • Wiktionary: /ˈjat/.
 
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  • Dymn

    Senior Member
    I think that according to the spelling norms it should be "flúid", and "hiàt" (one syllable). However I pronounce "flu-íd", "hi-àt"
     

    tenienteramires

    Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    Those words (<fluid> and <hiat>) are pronounced [fɫújt] (different from <fluït>, pronounced [fɫuít]) and [ját]. But in actual real life pronunciation almost everyone pronounces them as [fɫuít] and [iát], with hiatus. It's like the word <triumf> (a variant of <triomf>), which should be pronounced [tɾíwɱf], but almost everyone says [tɾiúɱf].
     

    Dymn

    Senior Member
    Triumf is not a correct word, it doesn't appear in the DIEC. Some people might use it because in Spanish it's triunfo, that's all. Anyway, for both triomf and triumf, the stress is on the second vowel and it has a hiatus (/trj/ is too difficult to pronounce).

    Could this pronunciation be attributed to influence of hiat's meaning? o_O
    I have no idea.
     

    tenienteramires

    Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    Triumf is not a correct word, it doesn't appear in the DIEC. Some people might use it because in Spanish it's triunfo, that's all. Anyway, for both triomf and triumf, the stress is on the second vowel and it has a hiatus (/trj/ is too difficult to pronounce).


    I have no idea.
    '"Triumf" ([tɾíwɱf]) is the original Catalan word and the most used in spoken language. It's used since the Valencian Golden Century, so it's not because in Spanish they say "triunfo". It's also correct, since it appears in the Diccionari Normatiu Valencià. In fact, the variant "triomf" is very modern.
     

    Doraemon-

    Senior Member
    "Spanish - Spain" "Catalan - Valencia"
    -ia- is never a diphtong in Catalan. That's why Dénia, València, independència... are "esdrúixoles" and have a graphical accent and Maria, diria, veuria... are "planes" and have no graphical accent, and need not one for 'breaking' the diphtong, because it can't even exist, that diphtong. There are no "growing?" diphtongs [vocal feble (i/u)+vocal forta (a/e/o)] excepting gu* and qu*.
    Hiat has a hiatus, it can't be otherwise.
    Fluid is a bit more complex. You can hear it in both ways (flújt or flu.ít [or with ending -d]), but for ortographical purposes it is considered a diphtong.

    With "triomf" we're in the same case that with -ia-. There's no -io- diphtong, it's as simple as [tri.ómf], at least in normative catalan (you can probably people saying [trjómf] but for ortographical issues and in normative pronounciation [jó] can't even exist)
     
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    tenienteramires

    Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    -ia- is never a diphtong in Catalan. That's why Dénia, València, independència... are "esdrúixoles" and have a graphical accent and Maria, diria, veuria... are "planes" and have no graphical accent, and need not one for 'breaking' the diphtong, because it can't even exist, that diphtong. There are no "growing?" diphtongs [vocal feble (i/u)+vocal forta (a/e/o)] excepting gu* and qu*.
    Hiat has a hiatus, it can't be otherwise.
    Fluid is a bit more complex. You can hear it in both ways (flújt or flu.ít [or with ending -d]), but for ortographical purposes it is considered a diphtong.

    With "triomf" we're in the same case that with -ia-. There's no -io- diphtong, it's as simple as [tri.ómf], at least in normative catalan (you can probably people saying [trjómf] but for ortographical issues and in normative pronounciation [jó] can't even exist)
    It's not exactly the way you say. <i> and <u> are only pronounced [j] and [w] before a vowel when they are at the start of a word (hiena [jéna], huit [wít]), between vowels (<iaia> [jája], meua [méwa]) and, in the case of <u>, before <q> and <g> (quatre [kwátɾe], aigua [ájɣwa]). Otherwise they are, orthographicaly, hiatus, but in real pronunciation they can sometimes be diphthonhs: València [valénsja], but more formally, [valénsia].
     
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    Doraemon-

    Senior Member
    "Spanish - Spain" "Catalan - Valencia"
    Tens raó, he escrit massa ràpid. També existeix com a diftong a principi de paraula! :thumbsup:
    (hiena, iot, iogurt...)
    Gràcies per la correcció!
    (i sí, clar, sempre segons normes ortogràfiques segons l'estàndard; a la pràctica s'acostuma a fer un diftong, tot i que a mi no em sona massa bé per exemple [dé.nja], sempre he dit [dé.ni.a]).
     

    tenienteramires

    Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    At any rate I think the normative spelling should be triümf. Or at least make the stress fall on the u. It makes no sense at all to prescribe [tɾíwɱf].
    I think the same. I also think the only correct spelling should be <triümf> (pronounced [tɾiúɱf]), since it's the only one used in spoken language, the most traditional, and its variation 'triomf' is a gallicism from de 19th century (according to DCVB).
     

    Doraemon-

    Senior Member
    "Spanish - Spain" "Catalan - Valencia"
    In Valencian I've always heard it with O [tɾióɱf] :thumbsup:
    I always thought it was the typical change o->u like in ho, or a castellanisme, not a gallicism :eek:
     

    tenienteramires

    Member
    Catalan - Occidental
    In Valencian I've always heard it with O [tɾióɱf] :thumbsup:
    I always thought it was the typical change o->u like in ho, or a castellanisme, not a gallicism :eek:
    I've always heard [tɾiúɱf] in spoken day-to-day language. I've only heard [tɾióɱf] in formal language, and possibly it's because it's the recommended form.

    According to the DCVB, 'triomf', with an O, it's a gallicism from the 19th century. The original Catalan word is with an U: triumf (or, in medieval Catalan, 'triumfo' and 'triumfe').
     

    Doraemon-

    Senior Member
    "Spanish - Spain" "Catalan - Valencia"
    Yes, that's what I've read, that's why I'm surprised!
    Being of French origin or not, I don't think that anyone decided to write it as in French if nobody said that O.
     
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